Talk:Play party (BDSM)
A dress code doesn't really prevent non-kinky people from entering a party to simply "get a look at tits&ass", as the Decadance website puts it. They simply have to have enough determination and money to buy fetish clothes and then go to the party. Wearing fetish clothes doesn't automatically make one kinky.
What a dress code does prevent is drunken middle-aged men passing by the party by pure coincidence, thinking "'ere, what's all this then?" and entering on impulse. - JIP | Talk 10:22, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Removal of all content
The page has just survived an attempt to delete it. Now somebody removes every single statement that is not backed up by a reference. (Leaving 2 lines). Supporting their action by reference to a Wiki policy whereby content may be removed if not properly referenced. I have recently removed one claim that seemed untrue but everything else is very much in line with the many online sources that I've looked at. There is such a thing as Wikilawyereing and I do believe that using a rule that alows the removal of dodgy content to all but delete an article is an example of such. Sexuality articles should conform to the same standards as those on other subjects but do not have to pass any higher tests. --Simon Speed (talk) 16:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- All I'm asking is that these other claims be verified. I for one am not sure any of them are accurate... and have yet to see any evidence. Please stop violating WP:V and actually provide references per that core policy. --Rividian (talk) 17:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I have added 1 extra online reference. Those seeking to delete material should consult these first. --Simon Speed (talk) 17:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I have re-reverted the removal of content. As far as I can see this is not a POV dispute as to whether the content is right or not but an attempt to destroy the page. No account has been taken of the additional references supplied or of the comments I have made on the discussion page. I have no hesitation in stating that I am reverting vandalism. --Simon Speed (talk) 17:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- As I said, I'm not sure any of these claims are accurate. WP:V requires clear, i.e. inline, citation for questionable claims. --Rividian (talk) 17:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
WP:V is a policy to promote a good encyclopedia by putting the burden of proof for controversial or odd-seeming material on those wanting to add it. Few (if any) articles have an inline citation for every sentence. To require such a thing and to use it as a pretext to remove all content is taking a principle beyond commonsense and in effect Wikilawyering]. The external links at the bottom of the page back much of what is here and I'm at a loss to see that any of it is controversial (apart from it being about taboo subject matter). --Simon Speed (talk) 17:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- I can understand that I come off like a jerk, but still... the content in this article is really not very good. The entire etiquette section reads like a how-to guide and should probably not come back regardless of sourcing. Claims about the legality of these things, though, are something I really think we should have sourced, even if I agree they do belong in the article. Giving no legal information is much better than giving inaccurate legal information. I could make this same sourcing argument for any article... honestly, people should probably do it more often... it is good for the project to make sure stuff in any given article can actually be backed up, like it's supposed to be. I'm not really sure how reliable a FAQ for "disciplinecorps.com" is. --Rividian (talk) 17:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
It really shouldn't be hard to source this article. A friend of mine had a shelf full of BDSM-related books including numerous "introductory" titles that described play parties and indeed covered all or most of the stuff in this article. Sadly we no longer live in the same city so I'm not able to borrow some books and source it up myself, but if anyone owns any introductory BDSM books it should be easy to go over this article and source it. --202.168.39.34 (talk) 04:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't want to edit war, but the removal of content is totally destructive. If the principle under which it is done is accepted, we will find it very difficult to build a page and other pages will be open to similar attack. I had one book on the subject and the wannabe page deleter was able to check this reference within minutes. Why wasn't the reference just added in the first place? If the supposed objector to content would replace material based more closely on the sources I have added I would be happy, but this sort of destruction makes me shy away from even trying to add/improve anything. Now any phrase not directly sourced will be deleted. A quick Google will get you a load of admittedly lightweight sources but show that most of the material is non-controversial description of an aspect of the scene. I would be happy to cut and paste or paraphrase from the Wipipedia (available under the GFDL). Would that be OK? Does the deleter have any constructive suggestions or are they willing to make any constructive edits? --Simon Speed (talk) 12:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Wipipedia is not a reliable source (see WP:V). Just reference the article, per WP:V, you claim it's so easy. I don't think it can be referenced, hence the AFD, which didn't produce evidence of more sources beyond the one half-page. If I thought these claims could be referenced to reliable sources, I'd do it. --Rividian (talk) 12:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Well I'm at my three-revert limit but you've ignored yours. I think that your actions do not display good faith. Why is Wipipedia not reliable on this subject? It is written by members of the fetish community and moderated. Do other sources disagree? Is the treatment controversial? If so what parts? Are there alternate POVs that need to be covered? Or should they get deleted too? --Simon Speed (talk) 13:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- WP:V says "self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable". The only real exception is if the content is demonstrably "produced by an established expert on the topic" which doesn't cover Wipipedia... I could create an account and start adding crap the article, presumably. I am just saying we apply what WP:V says... 3RR is not an entitlement, and it really doesn't apply to people directly trying to enforce a core policy. If this article can be verified, start doing it. I'd be thrilled if the content could be attributed to reliable sources... but right now it looks like it can't be. --Rividian (talk) 13:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Someone asked an admin to take a look. I'm an admin. I think the removed material was essentially accurate. I don't think it should be too hard to source it, and, given the dispute, it should be sourced.
While Wipipedia is doubtless a good source on the topic, and I think Rividian is being a bit of a stickler here, he or she has Wikipedia's rules on his side. Rividian, granting that you are acting in good faith: you might try working on this sourcing yourself instead of just deleting. I know that my own style is usually to delete ostensibly factual material only if I think it is likely to be false: otherwise, I just mark it as uncited and let the reader draw his/her own conclusion. Likely sources based on a quick Google Books search:
- Bill Henkin & Sybil Holiday, Consensual Sadomasochism: How to Talk About It and How to Do It Safely
- Drew Campbell, The Bride Wore Black Leather...And He Looked Fabulous!: An Etiquette Guide for the Rest of Us
- Neither should be hard to find.
- Another possibility would be to contact a good librarian. I realize that some libraries won't go near a topic like this, but others certainly will. I believe, for example, that the Seattle Public Library would be perfectly glad to help you research this, and they have online services (a reference librarian will do an online "chat"). Explain that you are researching for Wikipedia. Explain that you can't just hit a random website and need a "reliable" source.
If that doesn't work, there is an excellent library at Seattle's Center for Sex Positive Culture. Follow up from our article to their home page to their "Contact" page, email the director, explain what you need and ask to be put in touch with the librarian. Hope that helps. - Jmabel | Talk 16:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is all wonderful advice, but the 2 parties here seem more interested in directly violating WP:V to just restore the same old unencyclopedic stuff. The sources might be out there, I sure haven't seen them yet, but instead of violating what WP:V clearly says, these people need to find the sources. --Rividian (talk) 01:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
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